The Pelican Brief - Tax Reform - Special Session Sine Die with Joe Mapes

[00:00:10] Welcome to The Pelican Brief, I am your host David Tatman, thank you so much for joining us today. We just wrapped up the third special session of the Louisiana Legislature, a fiscal session, and while we don't have the fourth legislative session of the year, and we have as always our guest Joe Mapes is in the studio with us.

[00:00:53] Joe, thank you for being here. David, it's always a pleasure. Sorry to interrupt you, but I've had that conversation several times in the past few weeks.

[00:01:00] It's been kind of a, it's been a bit of a rough year, but anyway, the governor went on to call this session to try to enact fiscal reform in the state of Louisiana and tax reform encompassing a whole number of different items.

[00:01:20] And so, so Joe, how did he do?

[00:01:23] Fantastic. I'll tell you that to go back to the beginning of the series of podcasts that you and I did on this legislative session, the first thing that we both agreed to and said was it's a lot.

[00:01:34] And it wasn't just us. There was lots of other people. You had some guests and there's people that we've talked to that said the same thing. We said it's a lot. We also said that we do need tax reform. Louisiana does need tax reform. We further said that this package may be the perfect tax reform package that Louisiana needs. Okay.

[00:01:51] The only thing that we ever said was, can they do it in 19 days? I was a little bit doubtful. I'm proud of them. I got to tell you, we did it. They did it. And congratulations to everybody at the legislature, the governor and everybody with staff and the departments and everybody that had to work together to make that happen. Because you and I know that was a heavy load in 19 days.

[00:02:11] It's a lot. We, again, that's, I guess, going to be the theme of this season, this third season of the Pelican Brief. But we, it was certainly to a roller coaster. I mean, it was up and down every day. Things were in, things were out. And so there were, there were some major things that they wanted to do. I mean, one of the, there were a couple of big ones. One of the big ones was income tax, right?

[00:02:35] Oh, correct. Yeah. Going down to a fixed rate of 3.0. And I think that's down, we worked 4.45. You know, no, I'm sorry. Where were you?

[00:02:46] So there were three different, so there were three different categories as I appreciate. I think it was 1.8, like three point something and 4.25. Those were the three.

[00:02:57] They were all leveled out at 3.0.

[00:02:59] Right. That's right. And that's the personal income tax side of it.

[00:03:03] So if you take a look at your personal income tax return, go look at last year's, because I'm sure you have it handy. I'm kind of joking.

[00:03:11] And you go in there and look and just, you know, whatever your rate was, if you were at 4.25, you got, you know, you're going to, you're going to go down to that flat three.

[00:03:21] If you were at three, whatever the middle one was, you're going to go down a little.

[00:03:25] And if you were at 1.85, you're going to be made whole because one of the things they did on the personal income tax side is they doubled that allowance.

[00:03:35] So I think it was 12,000 to 24,000 so that no one would pay more in income, in personal income tax than they did before.

[00:03:45] Everyone would pay 3% or less this year.

[00:03:51] And then, of course, as it, as it goes on, it'll be just a flat 3%.

[00:03:55] Right. And then moving on to corporate taxes, we reduced, we completely removed, what is it?

[00:04:04] Seven? No, not severed taxes.

[00:04:06] We can-

[00:04:06] Franchise taxes.

[00:04:07] Yeah, franchise taxes. Completely removed those.

[00:04:09] That's right. And so on the corporate income tax side, the corporate income tax, that was one of the things that early on in this process,

[00:04:16] they said was just, we were really an outlier at 7.5% for corporate filings.

[00:04:22] Now, as I appreciated, that had a lot to do with like C-Corps.

[00:04:25] It's a different classification.

[00:04:28] But 7.5%, I think, was the highest in the nation.

[00:04:31] And so the idea was to try to get that down.

[00:04:33] And they did.

[00:04:34] They didn't get it to three, but they got it to-

[00:04:37] 5.2, I think.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:39] Yeah, that's right.

[00:04:40] Yeah, somewhere in the five.

[00:04:42] So that's progress in the right direction.

[00:04:45] And of course-

[00:04:46] That'll attract new business to Louisiana because business, you know, likes less taxes.

[00:04:51] That's right.

[00:04:51] That's right.

[00:04:52] And so that was, I think, one of the things that they wanted to do.

[00:04:55] And they said all along that if everything in the package didn't pass, then they would just have to graduate that income tax to where it might fall, right?

[00:05:04] So they wanted it all to be zero.

[00:05:07] They wanted zero income tax.

[00:05:09] That was the bigger pitch.

[00:05:11] But we didn't get there.

[00:05:12] But we made progress, right?

[00:05:13] And then, of course, you brought up the franchise tax, which is something that was a pretty big deal.

[00:05:20] I believe it was 2 point something percent in the state of Louisiana.

[00:05:25] Some places don't have corporate franchise taxes at all.

[00:05:30] Texas does, I think, maybe 1.25.

[00:05:33] I'm not exactly sure about that, but it was something that was mentioned on the floor at the end when they were having discussions.

[00:05:40] But obviously, that was one of the goals of the governor, and they got that done, too.

[00:05:44] They did.

[00:05:44] And what about inventory tax?

[00:05:46] So, you know, the inventory tax thing I find to be really interesting because I find it very complicated, right?

[00:05:53] And, you know, the whole issue of the way the inventory tax works, the way, you know, they charge for the inventory tax, but then the state gives a credit back, makes it more complicated.

[00:06:06] In this package, they had a provision in there that said that if it passed, you would have to opt in or opt out of inventory tax.

[00:06:19] And then the challenge with the parishes were that if you opted in or out, it was lifetime.

[00:06:30] You never got to go back and change it again, and then would it make you anti-competitive with your neighbor?

[00:06:36] If you had a neighbor that didn't have an inventory tax and you did, would people start moving three feet over the parish line to that other parish and would it spurred development?

[00:06:47] Kind of like the truck stop casino, you know?

[00:06:51] They just, if you make it illegal in one parish, you can guarantee that on that parish line, they're going to be just lined up waiting for people, right?

[00:06:58] There are companies that move their corporate jet fleet across the state line when it comes time for, you know, assessment.

[00:07:05] Right.

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:06] So I think, so tell me, Joe, do you know what the final result was on inventory?

[00:07:12] I don't know if I followed that as closely.

[00:07:14] I mean, I think their goal was to repeal it.

[00:07:17] I think that's a much bigger, and we didn't repeal it.

[00:07:20] No.

[00:07:20] And so I think that's a much bigger topic because you and I talked, we touched on this last week.

[00:07:24] It's not just the money flow, that revenue flow that you described a minute ago.

[00:07:30] It's the generation after generation of habit.

[00:07:34] I mean, because again, I pointed this out last week.

[00:07:38] A lot of parishes have the ability to collect revenue, and they do a very good job of it.

[00:07:44] So if inventory tax system went away, a lot of our parishes would be just fine.

[00:07:50] Our poor, more poor parishes, we'd have to figure out something for them.

[00:07:53] But I think, you know, when it comes to that, that's almost like a sacred cow, kind of like homestead exemption.

[00:07:58] That's a nice segue in the homestead exemption, which stays on the books.

[00:08:02] So, you know, everybody that lives in Louisiana, owns a home, doesn't have to pay taxes on the first $75,000 of that value of that home.

[00:08:10] But I'm going to go back to inventory tax.

[00:08:13] That's kind of what it reminds me of.

[00:08:15] It's a sacred cow, right?

[00:08:16] It's also just the weirdest thing, right?

[00:08:19] So as I appreciate it, the locals tax the inventory, and they get the money.

[00:08:26] Oh, I'm sorry.

[00:08:27] They tax the inventory, but then the state provides the money to offset what that would be.

[00:08:32] I can't say I understand inventory tax.

[00:08:35] And I could get Jason to go into great detail about it, but it's just – it's something that I have clients who have inventory, and some of them say they don't mind it, and other ones say it's brutal.

[00:08:45] But I'll tell you, main parishes where you have a lot of economic development, like Jefferson and East Baton Rouge, Caddo, Calcasieu, you know, Lafayette, the bigger parishes, it's a big part of their budget.

[00:08:57] And then sometimes you've got parishes, it's not that big a deal because you don't have that much that they collect from it, but then it could even be a larger part of their budget.

[00:09:08] But it does make locals have to come back through the state again, and it's kind of like you talked about with the flag where the Mama Pelican is, you know, the little pelicans, that's the parishes, and the Mama Pelican's the state.

[00:09:23] Not everybody agrees with me.

[00:09:24] Well, I actually – I agree.

[00:09:27] I think that if there was a way that we could figure out to make the locals be self-sustaining, get out of their way, let them do what they need to do and do their taxes.

[00:09:38] I think they'd flourish.

[00:09:38] Yeah, I think they would too.

[00:09:39] They'd develop their local resources more.

[00:09:42] Right.

[00:09:43] Their local talent more.

[00:09:44] That's right.

[00:09:45] You know, we could support that in some way, especially in the parishes, you know, that are more poor, like I was saying earlier.

[00:09:50] That's right.

[00:09:51] Right.

[00:09:51] So there were a couple of other issues that came up.

[00:09:55] Go ahead.

[00:09:57] You know, at the beginning, you asked me what I thought of this session.

[00:10:00] Oh, yeah.

[00:10:00] I forgot to say, you know, let's talk about the 65-year-olds and older who get a tax break.

[00:10:07] And, you know, you had mentioned last show, you said if we really wanted to do something, we need to give them a tax break so they could stay here with their retiree nest egg instead of going into another state.

[00:10:16] And I mentioned my brother and I think, you know, your family member.

[00:10:19] Who was it?

[00:10:20] Your sister?

[00:10:21] Yeah.

[00:10:21] Both moved to Tennessee right after they retired, a lifelong career in Louisiana.

[00:10:27] So that's another big deal, don't you think, that we got this tax break?

[00:10:31] I think it's a big deal and I think we might have been somewhat responsible for it.

[00:10:36] No one was talking about it at the beginning of the session.

[00:10:40] And, you know, when you talk about the conversation I had with legislators is you talk about out migration and a lot of people think that.

[00:10:49] The best and the brightest leaving the state.

[00:10:50] Right.

[00:10:51] But what about the.

[00:10:52] And the richest.

[00:10:52] What about the old and the wretched like me?

[00:10:55] Old and the wretched and the richest.

[00:10:56] We don't.

[00:10:57] That's right.

[00:10:57] We don't want them taking all that money that they made all those years and going someplace else.

[00:11:02] At least if it was based on income tax.

[00:11:04] They've already been through the other.

[00:11:06] Tennessee is a great place to visit.

[00:11:07] But, no, keep that money.

[00:11:08] Keep grandchildren and everything right here in Louisiana.

[00:11:11] So we might have planted the seed that helped that happen and we need to continue to do that because there is a lot of out migration with wealth.

[00:11:19] That goes to other states.

[00:11:20] We do need to keep our best and our brightest.

[00:11:23] And, you know, I had a conversation with Representative John Weibel about this meta data center that's coming to Richland Parish.

[00:11:35] Richland Parish.

[00:11:36] We talked about that.

[00:11:36] Yeah.

[00:11:37] Yeah.

[00:11:37] And the reality of it is is that's how you keep, you know, your brain drained.

[00:11:41] Those are going to be really good jobs.

[00:11:42] They're going to be a lot of young people are going to want to go up there and stay.

[00:11:45] Land's cheap.

[00:11:47] You know, cost of living is cheap.

[00:11:49] Inexpensive, I guess is the right word.

[00:11:51] And that's the way to turn it down.

[00:11:53] And there's more data centers coming.

[00:11:54] I can promise you Louisiana is prime for that.

[00:11:57] So a piece of trivia for you.

[00:11:59] Yeah.

[00:12:00] Poverty Point.

[00:12:01] Two adjacent landowners that own quite a bit of significant land up there.

[00:12:05] Oprah Winfrey and Bill Gates right next to.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:08] Right.

[00:12:08] That's right.

[00:12:09] Yeah.

[00:12:09] Well, and wait, you left out Francis Thompson.

[00:12:12] Oh, yeah.

[00:12:13] That's right.

[00:12:14] To make the list complete.

[00:12:15] Yes.

[00:12:15] Dr. Thompson, who is the patriarch of Poverty Point.

[00:12:21] Right.

[00:12:21] I told you I've got to tell you a story about Francis.

[00:12:24] About two years ago, he.

[00:12:27] This is Representative Francis Thompson from that area, but just go on.

[00:12:31] Yeah.

[00:12:31] He's from Dale High, Louisiana.

[00:12:32] Dale High, Louisiana.

[00:12:33] That's right.

[00:12:34] And then he was in the House forever until they, you know, term limits passed.

[00:12:38] Then he ran for the Senate and he stayed there 12 years.

[00:12:40] And now he's run back for the House and he's in the House.

[00:12:43] Well, two years ago in the House, he filed a bill to create a no-fly zone over Poverty Point

[00:12:50] because agricultural aviators were buzzing his house.

[00:12:52] Now, he's got a beautiful home up there, him in Maryland.

[00:12:54] If you go, if you ever go up there, you really don't want to leave.

[00:12:57] Okay.

[00:12:57] Right.

[00:12:58] It's peaceful.

[00:12:58] It's serene.

[00:12:59] And I get it.

[00:13:00] So if you've got some aviators buzzing you.

[00:13:01] But he filed a bill to create a no-fly zone when the world, the civilized world,

[00:13:06] couldn't even get a no-fly zone over the Ukraine.

[00:13:08] And here's Francis Thompson trying to get one over Poverty Point, you know, up in Dale High.

[00:13:12] You got to love it.

[00:13:13] You got to love it.

[00:13:14] Well, there were, there's another significant.

[00:13:18] piece of legislation that passed.

[00:13:20] It's actually two pieces.

[00:13:21] One is to call and allow for a constitutional convention in the March election in the spring

[00:13:26] of next year.

[00:13:27] Those are usually done in the fall.

[00:13:29] But this is to deal with the constitutional amendment that was passed dealing with Article

[00:13:39] 7 of the Constitution, to pull parts of Article 7, which is sort of the taxing section of the

[00:13:46] Constitution and put it into statute.

[00:13:48] The amendment would change Article 7 of the Louisiana Constitution and include revisions

[00:13:51] to lower the maximum rate of income tax, increase income tax deductions for citizens over 65,

[00:13:57] and provide for a growth, government growth limit among other modifications.

[00:14:02] That's just the general overview right there.

[00:14:04] Right.

[00:14:04] That's right.

[00:14:05] And so it doesn't, the constitutional amendment doesn't take the language, it takes the language

[00:14:10] out of the Constitution, puts it in statute, and I believe provides a provision in there

[00:14:14] that says it would need a two-thirds vote for anything to come out of there should the

[00:14:19] constitutional convention, should the constitutional amendment pass, right?

[00:14:24] And so it's still got to pass the voters in March.

[00:14:28] Wait, right now inside of a constitutional convention, it only takes a 53-count vote and

[00:14:33] a 20-count vote in the House, right?

[00:14:34] This wouldn't change that in your understanding.

[00:14:37] It is my understanding that the language of the bill that, the constitutional amendment,

[00:14:43] amendment, and the bill that, in the, is that when it moves it into statute, it may, it will

[00:14:50] create a two-thirds vote.

[00:14:54] They won't have to go back to the electorate, but they would still need the two-thirds vote

[00:14:59] of the body to change anything in that body of law.

[00:15:02] Can't say I'm a constitutional lawyer, but I think you can put a provision in there.

[00:15:07] I mean, we know, was it Gunn, Stephen Gunn, who I think passed the one that said that any

[00:15:12] tax needs a two-thirds vote on the floor.

[00:15:17] So I believe that's correct.

[00:15:19] I believe that was one of the stipulations that they put in there to keep from moving it

[00:15:24] from, there are a lot of people who had issues with moving it out of the Constitution because

[00:15:30] the voters of Louisiana and the legislatures in the past had put it in the Constitution because

[00:15:35] they wanted to protect those particular funds.

[00:15:38] Yeah, but I will agree with a lot of the legislators that we have now that our Constitution is loaded

[00:15:43] up with amendments.

[00:15:44] Oh, there's no doubt.

[00:15:44] And I got a suggestion I'd like to throw out right now that if we, when we do get a chance

[00:15:49] to look at all those amendments to the Constitution, think about this.

[00:15:53] In the beginning, these were some legitimate exemptions and exclusions and tax incentive programs

[00:15:59] to try and keep things like farmers and agriculture competitive with other parts of the country,

[00:16:04] other states in the country and the rest of the world.

[00:16:06] So you had some good ones.

[00:16:08] But as time went along, you had more political influence that got these exemptions on the

[00:16:14] Constitution.

[00:16:15] So it's not necessarily that there was a need, but a need was demonstrated by a particular

[00:16:20] industry politically.

[00:16:22] And so let's start at the Constitution now and let's look at the most recent amendments to

[00:16:27] it.

[00:16:28] And I'm not saying they're all bad and put on politically and they don't deserve to be on

[00:16:31] there.

[00:16:32] I'm saying there's going to be more of those up there, up top, than there are going to

[00:16:36] be close to when we first started putting amendments to the Constitution.

[00:16:39] And look, I will just tell you, I kind of have an opinion about the way we amend our Constitution,

[00:16:46] and that is that I can tell you, for most constitutional amendments, people don't even read them.

[00:16:54] It's true.

[00:16:56] It amazes me because of how many people that I hear that say, well, I'm against taxes.

[00:17:01] And I go, really?

[00:17:01] I see very few taxes as constitutional amendment or otherwise that pass at the polls because

[00:17:06] by the time they get to the polls, there's a certain level of trust in the system and

[00:17:12] their local politicians and their state as well.

[00:17:16] But the point is, they don't.

[00:17:18] And I'm making an excuse for them, I guess, because they should read.

[00:17:21] Right.

[00:17:21] But, you know, I don't know if you watch this much, but I call it a down the ballot fade

[00:17:27] out where people come in, they vote for governor or they vote for president, they vote for their

[00:17:33] congressman, their senator, and then they start getting down and maybe they vote for the mayor.

[00:17:38] Maybe they vote.

[00:17:39] Maybe the local millage, increasing the tax on the mosquito spray program.

[00:17:42] But sometimes they just say, you know what?

[00:17:44] I don't know.

[00:17:45] And they walk out, right?

[00:17:46] And you can see as you go down the ballot, and most people don't know this, that as you

[00:17:50] go down the ballot, there are fewer and fewer votes down the ballot because people don't

[00:17:54] vote.

[00:17:55] You know, when I first started voting, I thought that if you didn't vote for everything on the

[00:18:01] ballot, it didn't count.

[00:18:02] I guess I was just had a bad civics teacher or something.

[00:18:05] I don't know.

[00:18:07] Sorry, Ms. Curtis.

[00:18:08] But the reality of it is, is that there are a lot of people that they don't go that far

[00:18:14] down.

[00:18:14] There are a lot of people who walk into the booth and say, I know this guy.

[00:18:17] I'm voting for him.

[00:18:17] I know that guy.

[00:18:18] I'm voting for him.

[00:18:19] I don't know anything else.

[00:18:19] I'm not voting on anything else.

[00:18:21] Yeah.

[00:18:22] And then they get the government they deserve.

[00:18:24] Yes.

[00:18:25] After Katrina, I would say that the commissioner of insurance race was arguably the most important

[00:18:30] race in all of history, as far as we knew, in Louisiana, because it was devastating and

[00:18:35] we were needing guidance, okay?

[00:18:37] And there was an election coming up because that was in 08, and so it was coming up that fall.

[00:18:41] Well, 18% of the registered voters turned out to vote in the primary and 22% in the runoff.

[00:18:48] Now, that's always amazed me.

[00:18:50] Those numbers have always stuck with me.

[00:18:52] Since then, and it depends on what the issues are, but we've gotten a little bit higher participation

[00:18:56] right now.

[00:18:57] I'm glad to see it.

[00:18:58] I'm glad to see it in the 30s and 35s and a lot of these races, you know?

[00:19:02] But you also have to have a draw to get somebody to come to a race, like a presidential race,

[00:19:06] you know?

[00:19:07] Like if you've got some constitutional amendments on the ballot and there's no mayor's race or,

[00:19:13] you know, a sheriff's race or something like that, people are going to go, generally,

[00:19:17] you know, unless they got a lot of time on their hands.

[00:19:19] Yeah, it's just sad to me.

[00:19:21] I was watching this year.

[00:19:24] I think it was this year.

[00:19:27] They had presidential elections.

[00:19:29] I think they call them presidential elections in India.

[00:19:33] There were 700-

[00:19:35] In Parliament, yeah.

[00:19:36] 750 million people registered to vote.

[00:19:41] Wow.

[00:19:41] Can you imagine running an election with that many people?

[00:19:44] It's just bizarre.

[00:19:45] But the fact is, it's like, I tell my kids, it's a right, but it's also an obligation.

[00:19:50] You need to go.

[00:19:51] You need to learn about what's going on.

[00:19:53] I think people-

[00:19:54] People don't think their vote counts a lot.

[00:19:56] Yeah.

[00:19:56] And, you know, they think after somebody gets elected, a lot of times they don't care about

[00:20:03] them anymore, and so they think their vote doesn't count.

[00:20:05] But any listeners that are out there, you're wrong, because David and I live and die by one

[00:20:11] vote every day.

[00:20:12] And I know we're in a particular profession that relies on votes, but at the same time,

[00:20:17] it matters.

[00:20:17] It matters.

[00:20:18] Well, look, and I've seen legislative races.

[00:20:20] I think Kyle Lodge, when I lost his race by like 16 votes one time, I think, was it Franklin

[00:20:27] Foyle was like six votes or maybe even less.

[00:20:32] What about Woody Jenkins and Mary Landrieu from U.S. Senate down there?

[00:20:36] I think she won and he lost by 350.

[00:20:38] Yeah, with like 300,000 votes cast, right?

[00:20:43] Yeah, with 300 votes or so between them.

[00:20:45] So yeah.

[00:20:45] Yeah, it's crazy.

[00:20:46] So the vote does count.

[00:20:49] Are you looking to make an impact at the Louisiana state capital?

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[00:21:41] Another big issue was the services tax.

[00:21:43] So the House Bill 9.

[00:21:46] Well, that's how they pay.

[00:21:47] So that's my segue.

[00:21:48] Okay.

[00:21:49] So you're looking at – we've got to figure out a way to pay for these reductions in corporate

[00:21:54] tax and in franchise tax and personal income tax, right?

[00:21:57] We're fixing them and we're lowering them.

[00:21:59] And so that's a nice segue into David.

[00:22:01] The services tax, which is going to help us pay for that, which is about a $1.3 billion.

[00:22:05] That's with a B, billion-dollar package, correct?

[00:22:09] Yeah.

[00:22:10] I believe the whole income tax and reduction package was like $1.3.

[00:22:16] I know the services tax.

[00:22:18] I know there were some services that did get in.

[00:22:21] So kind of just so our audience knows, at the end, what the House sent to the Senate,

[00:22:29] they did not send them House Bill 9, which was the services tax bill.

[00:22:33] They never voted on the services tax bill, which was by Representative Reiser, House Bill 9,

[00:22:39] on the House 4.

[00:22:40] They didn't vote on it because they didn't have the votes to pass those services taxes.

[00:22:47] So there were two bills that did pass that they did some work on.

[00:22:51] So House Bill 1 was a reduction in personal income tax.

[00:22:55] House Bill 10, amongst other things, was the renewal or the making permanent of the sales tax,

[00:23:02] and that was Representative Reiser's bill.

[00:23:04] And so when they got to the Senate, you know how they say,

[00:23:09] the House passes bills and the Senate fixes them.

[00:23:12] So they took—

[00:23:13] Or they fix them up.

[00:23:14] That's right.

[00:23:14] And so just for fun, they took House Bill 1, and they rolled it into House Bill 10.

[00:23:24] Yeah.

[00:23:24] And so the way that worked is they basically had—they could cut the income tax,

[00:23:30] and they had something to pay for it.

[00:23:32] Now, when the House bill came over, it was originally a for—making permanent,

[00:23:38] the 0.45 clean portion of a penny.

[00:23:43] When it left the House, it was at 0.40, and it was not clean.

[00:23:48] They had put a bunch of exemptions and exceptions in there.

[00:23:51] So it went from being like $400 million to like $200 million.

[00:23:56] Right.

[00:23:56] When the Senate got it, the Senate turned it into a five-cent sales tax as a clean penny.

[00:24:05] And so they say that a clean penny generates about a billion dollars.

[00:24:11] It's a lot of money.

[00:24:13] Like we said before, it's a lot.

[00:24:15] And so they rolled those two together and then just passed one bill.

[00:24:19] So all of that was together.

[00:24:20] Now, the other bills like the corporate income tax and stuff like that, that also passed,

[00:24:25] but it wasn't rolled in like that, right?

[00:24:27] Right.

[00:24:27] And none of—so the House Bill 9 didn't pass,

[00:24:31] but there were a couple of services that were put in as well as the other services that were included were the digital services.

[00:24:38] So your Netflix, your Amazon, your Hulu.

[00:24:45] I should know the names of all these because I work in the film business.

[00:24:49] But all of the streaming services, I guess you would.

[00:24:53] Remember the conversation that if you went into Blockbuster 20 years ago and you got a tape,

[00:25:00] you paid a sales tax on it, but now it comes to your house and you don't?

[00:25:04] Oh, yeah, right.

[00:25:05] Streaming services.

[00:25:06] That's how it all began.

[00:25:07] That's correct.

[00:25:08] Yeah.

[00:25:08] So now it does.

[00:25:10] And it's a little more than that because the digital thing is a little bit bigger.

[00:25:13] So it's digital products.

[00:25:15] It could be software.

[00:25:15] It could be software subscriptions.

[00:25:16] So if you have a personal Office 365 account or a business 365 account, that's now going to be taxed at the higher rate.

[00:25:26] Right.

[00:25:26] So to some degree, there are some services in there.

[00:25:29] I think telecommunication services was included in there.

[00:25:33] Maybe cold storage.

[00:25:36] You're right.

[00:25:36] I don't have the whole list, but I think we talked about this last time.

[00:25:40] I had a friend in the cold storage business.

[00:25:41] He goes, y'all are going to tax me now?

[00:25:44] I said, I promise you I'll never tax you, but the state will.

[00:25:49] So what are your thoughts about why that struggled so much, Joe?

[00:25:53] What, the tax services?

[00:25:54] The services.

[00:25:55] Well, I mean, it's new taxes.

[00:25:56] And everybody's scared of the unknown to some level.

[00:26:01] And so this has never been tried in Louisiana.

[00:26:04] I know it's been modeled from other states.

[00:26:06] But it's new taxes, and it's a whole lot of new taxes, and it's supposed to even out.

[00:26:10] And hopefully that's the way it does.

[00:26:12] Even out, I say, because they lower the personal income tax, the franchise tax, and the corporate income tax.

[00:26:17] Franchise tax being taken away is going to bring new business to Louisiana, and there'll be more revenue and more taxes.

[00:26:23] But I think that that, I know that, because I was in rooms with people that said, you know, how is this going to affect us as individuals and as a business that uses different services?

[00:26:34] And the answer is you just don't know yet.

[00:26:36] But the other answer that I had in a conversation right before we walked in here was, you know, you don't have to use those services.

[00:26:45] And that's true.

[00:26:47] And that's true for you and me.

[00:26:49] And we had that conversation last week.

[00:26:50] I was glad to see this tax break given to the 65-year-old citizens of Louisiana and above, you know, because they get affected.

[00:26:58] And if you had a 65-year-old, 85-year-old that's locked in a certain amount of services, you know, you could say quit those services because you don't have to have them.

[00:27:09] But, you know, we're going to see.

[00:27:11] Yeah.

[00:27:11] Yeah, no doubt about it.

[00:27:12] There were a number of services in there that, you know, if nothing else was interesting to talk about, tattoo parlors, massage parlors, barbershops, landscaping services.

[00:27:27] And I know that part of the conversation was not as much about the tax because, in the end, when you tax a landscaper, you're not taxing a landscaper.

[00:27:36] You're taxing the person that uses those services.

[00:27:40] So it's people, right?

[00:27:42] It could be businesses.

[00:27:43] So let's say you're an apartment complex and you have to hire.

[00:27:48] But that apartment complex is going to get a corporate income tax deduction too.

[00:27:52] So they'll get, yeah, if they file as a C, they would have to be pretty large.

[00:27:58] I don't file as a C, do you?

[00:27:59] I'm an S.

[00:28:00] Yeah, I'm still subchapter S.

[00:28:02] I don't think there's that many Cs.

[00:28:04] But the other part of it is it just, you know, people figure that in the cost of the rent just passes it on.

[00:28:09] But if you want to get it.

[00:28:10] I think the bigger conversation that I heard was about people becoming remitters.

[00:28:17] And so, you know, you, right now you go out, you know, you own a lawnmower and a leaf blower and a weed eater.

[00:28:28] And you go out and you cut grass.

[00:28:30] If you have to be a remitter, remitting can be complicated, right?

[00:28:35] Paper involves paperwork.

[00:28:37] Yeah, and for all of the people that I work with, like, that are remitters, they hire people to do their remitting.

[00:28:44] So all of a sudden now you've got a guy who's, again, a lawnmower, a blower, and a weed eater.

[00:28:49] He's going out and cutting, and now he's got to hire somebody that's probably expensive to do his tax reports.

[00:28:54] I mean, he could do them himself.

[00:28:56] Don't make a mistake on those tax reports.

[00:28:58] It's been a common issue for doctors throughout the years because doctors will have laws that get passed,

[00:29:02] and they'll put more requirements on the doctor's office.

[00:29:04] And the doctor's office is practicing medicine, number one, and running a small office, number two.

[00:29:10] And then all of a sudden they've got to start, you know, complying with different laws.

[00:29:14] They've got to hire extra staff in those doctor's offices to keep up with that.

[00:29:19] It's mainly filing of codes, you know, online these days.

[00:29:24] But still, online takes just as much as paper used to take.

[00:29:26] It's crazy.

[00:29:27] So one of the things I heard is that there would probably be a larger appetite for those services if there was a centralized sales tax system.

[00:29:36] And the idea being that if I could sign, if I could log on to a computer and say this is, here's how much I've collected,

[00:29:47] and here's where I am domiciled, and then let that software calculate it, then you don't need that.

[00:29:53] And that's one of the things that I've heard is from a number of legislators.

[00:29:58] I would be more willing to do that if there was a system that wasn't as complicated.

[00:30:04] Because you brought it up.

[00:30:05] There's more taxing authorities in the state than there are parishes.

[00:30:10] And so, right?

[00:30:11] Because you have a taxing authority or two within a city, which that city is within a parish.

[00:30:16] So you could take Spanish Town.

[00:30:19] There was a bill to try and create a taxing district in Spanish Town, which is a little historic neighborhood.

[00:30:25] But nonetheless, it's a neighborhood, you know, near the state capitol in Baton Rouge.

[00:30:30] So you could have two or three.

[00:30:32] So, yeah, I don't know exactly how many taxing districts there are.

[00:30:35] But if you're in your parish, you have a greater ability, you know, your millages that you collect your taxes on are voted on by the people in the parish.

[00:30:46] So it's not like, you know, they don't have a say in it.

[00:30:49] That's right.

[00:30:49] And, I mean, I got a call about that this weekend.

[00:30:51] I think in West Baton Rouge there's a tax being considered.

[00:30:56] Yeah.

[00:30:56] And they call it a millage.

[00:30:57] So my family member was like, what's a millage?

[00:31:00] You know what I'm saying?

[00:31:01] It's a thousand.

[00:31:02] And so, but that, and of course that's right on your property.

[00:31:05] So what happens with a lot of property taxes is people don't notice all those millages.

[00:31:09] But I want to share something with you.

[00:31:10] I own commercial property for a good while in Baton Rouge.

[00:31:14] And when, I don't know if it's a difference, but I don't get it with my home.

[00:31:18] But with the commercial property, I got a list of all the millages.

[00:31:21] It was three pages long.

[00:31:23] Wow.

[00:31:23] Little bitty millages, you know, things that probably don't even exist anymore.

[00:31:27] But all those millages are in there.

[00:31:29] And when you add them all up, it was a lot of money.

[00:31:31] You know, again, not complaining.

[00:31:33] I don't own that property anymore.

[00:31:34] I paid all my taxes.

[00:31:35] But I did want to bring up one elephant in the room.

[00:31:39] And that is, I heard a lot of the, and I'm sorry, I'm going to do this, the fake news

[00:31:45] people out there that made it look like the services tax was defeated because lobbyists

[00:31:51] were in it.

[00:31:52] And I'm serious.

[00:31:54] I listened to Haldane in the morning and they were like, you know, you know why that

[00:31:58] died?

[00:31:58] That's the lobbyist did that.

[00:32:00] And then I heard another show in New Orleans.

[00:32:02] It was radio.

[00:32:03] It was all radio.

[00:32:04] No one did that on television.

[00:32:05] And I didn't see that in the paper, but on radio, you know, it's a good shot, right?

[00:32:08] It's a good, it gets click throughs and all that kind of stuff.

[00:32:11] I never spoke to a single legislator about a law being taxed.

[00:32:15] Did you?

[00:32:16] No.

[00:32:17] And I wasn't even in the building except for one day.

[00:32:19] Right.

[00:32:20] And I just came, I won't mention his name, but I came with a friend of mine.

[00:32:23] We sat for five and a half hours in Ways and Means Committee and that was enough.

[00:32:27] Yeah.

[00:32:28] We just wanted to see what was going on.

[00:32:29] Yeah.

[00:32:30] So I'm aware of what you're saying.

[00:32:32] And as a matter of fact, I wrote a tweet that I was going to tweet on it at about 545 in

[00:32:40] the morning when I actually did see it on television.

[00:32:42] Yeah.

[00:32:42] And I called a friend of mine who talked me off of that ledge.

[00:32:47] I was amazed to see that come out in my living room on the television saying that lobbyists

[00:32:53] were responsible for this because we had, unless I don't know what I'm talking about, I hadn't

[00:32:58] seen any lobbyists up there strong arming anybody.

[00:33:01] I haven't heard about it.

[00:33:02] And I was only there one day, but you and I know, we know what's going on there even

[00:33:06] when we're not there.

[00:33:07] Sure.

[00:33:08] We're in contact with, you and I are in contact with each other.

[00:33:10] We're in contact with all the legislators.

[00:33:12] So we know what's going on over there.

[00:33:13] So I was there all day, every day because of film, right?

[00:33:16] I had a client in the crosshairs.

[00:33:18] We were supposed to be zeroed.

[00:33:20] We ended up surviving out and really doing well, I thought.

[00:33:24] I was there every day, all day in the middle of it.

[00:33:28] And I never once heard a lobbyist talk to a legislator about the lobbying tax.

[00:33:33] The thing about the first people that took the table in ways and means, not even really

[00:33:38] to oppose.

[00:33:39] And I think at that time it was House Bill 9 by Reiser that you mentioned earlier.

[00:33:42] It was just to point out.

[00:33:44] It was, you know, first of all, there was a few people from the motion picture industry

[00:33:47] in the Senate.

[00:33:48] Right.

[00:33:49] Okay.

[00:33:49] And again, that was more informative than it was, hey, we're here to oppose this.

[00:33:53] All right.

[00:33:54] Right.

[00:33:54] Then go back to the House.

[00:33:55] She had, I think it was the Professional Insurance Association.

[00:33:58] Right.

[00:33:59] Right.

[00:33:59] They came to the table, Orleans Parish.

[00:34:02] And I think it was one other.

[00:34:04] And they didn't really express opposition.

[00:34:06] You know, they just stated their position and possibly their concern.

[00:34:11] Right.

[00:34:11] And of course, in the insurance world, in the services tax, you would have been taxing,

[00:34:16] remodeling, construction, home.

[00:34:19] And the concern was, is that if you're going to tax that between the states, four and a half

[00:34:24] or five percent in the locals, because once the state taxes it, the locals can tax it.

[00:34:28] Right.

[00:34:29] So you're going to add 10 percent to the cost of all your renovations.

[00:34:32] It's going to go to the actuaries.

[00:34:34] And the actuaries are going to make an adjustment on your premium.

[00:34:37] And their concern was, hey, if you're going to do this, you need to understand it will increase

[00:34:43] insurance premiums.

[00:34:45] And that was pretty telling.

[00:34:48] They didn't say they were against it.

[00:34:49] They just said, you need to understand these are the implications.

[00:34:52] Which, by the way, and I wasn't lobbying on that particular issue, but what great information,

[00:34:59] because no one, you know, none of the legislators realized that.

[00:35:05] When that was explained to them, and you could see they were like, oh, this is not good.

[00:35:10] Well, I mean, it couldn't have been worse timing.

[00:35:12] Right.

[00:35:13] You know, with everything Louisiana's been through for the past few years.

[00:35:17] And so, anyway, I had to go off on that little lobbying deal, because, again, I never

[00:35:22] lobbied it.

[00:35:23] We talked about this before, that lobbyists don't have the greatest of reputations.

[00:35:26] And we're the fall guy in a lot of situations.

[00:35:29] Because, you know, if the lobbyist was in the room, or especially if he's out of the room,

[00:35:33] you know, they get it tagged on the lobbyist.

[00:35:34] So nobody's going to really second guess that.

[00:35:36] But I'm glad you spoke up for us, David, because lobbyists did not do anything at that

[00:35:42] capital.

[00:35:43] That capital, that process in 19 days went relatively smoothly, that I could tell.

[00:35:50] And I didn't hear one single lobbyist.

[00:35:52] And every lobbyist that I know, and every, I'm going to say government relations professional,

[00:35:57] because it's a lot more than just lobbying, was trying to find ways to make something good

[00:36:04] happen for Louisiana.

[00:36:05] No one, very, I'm not aware of anyone that went up and said, hell no, you know, we're

[00:36:10] against this.

[00:36:11] We're coming and crashing it down.

[00:36:12] What we were saying is, let's just be thoughtful about this so that when we do it, it's something

[00:36:17] that you don't eliminate 15,000 jobs with the hope of getting 15,000 jobs.

[00:36:24] And I thought that everybody worked pretty collaboratively in that effort.

[00:36:30] I thought Cameron Henry was a rock star in the end, because I think if Cameron wouldn't

[00:36:38] have asserted himself the way that he did, I think that it could have all fallen apart.

[00:36:43] It was there.

[00:36:44] I mean, it was right there.

[00:36:46] It was teetering on the edge, right?

[00:36:48] I've been very proud of Cameron as the Senate president.

[00:36:52] Yes.

[00:36:52] You're watching people come from the House to the Senate.

[00:36:56] People change.

[00:36:57] And you know that.

[00:36:57] And Cameron, if anything, he just, he matured and he got more, he got calmer and just, he's

[00:37:04] got a steady hand.

[00:37:05] And I really admire him as a leader.

[00:37:08] I enjoy watching him lead that Senate.

[00:37:10] And so back to the lobbying piece, the issue that I had, and I never really communicated this

[00:37:15] with anyone, but a lot of the people who pay me are nonprofit organizations.

[00:37:21] And so they would have to learn how to be remitters of sales tax for one guy.

[00:37:26] And so, or gal, whatever, you know, whatever the case is.

[00:37:30] And so I think, I think going back to what I said earlier is it's about being a remitter

[00:37:35] that most people who were going to be the subject of the tax were concerned about.

[00:37:40] Well, let's talk about Neal Reiser's bill then that got stuck on the calendar in the House.

[00:37:45] I haven't read all of Mark Wright's bill, House Bill 10, which is 150 pages long.

[00:37:49] But how was that, you know, how was that addressed in there?

[00:37:53] Did you see it?

[00:37:54] Yeah, they had, they added some services.

[00:37:56] They did not add many services, but they did add some specific services to that bill, but

[00:38:03] they did not add.

[00:38:04] Did they add the portion that was, I think, on the front page of House Bill 9, which talked

[00:38:10] about $10,000 amount of a job would trigger?

[00:38:15] No.

[00:38:16] No?

[00:38:16] Okay.

[00:38:17] I didn't, I didn't, you know, okay.

[00:38:19] Quite frankly, I'm glad to see they didn't add that portion because I think that would

[00:38:22] have been a logistical nightmare.

[00:38:23] I don't, you know, I don't know how many people would actually be turning in paperwork.

[00:38:27] And then if you're trying to audit a profession that's not turning in paperwork, I mean, these

[00:38:32] poor departments, they're already understaffed as it is.

[00:38:35] So, you know, have to go out and do actual audits and have personnel go do that.

[00:38:39] There'd be a lot.

[00:38:40] Yeah.

[00:38:41] And so I say that, and I want to just give a little bit of a caveat, if you will.

[00:38:45] I have not seen the complete enrolled version of the bill.

[00:38:49] And so what I'm talking about there for our listening audience that wouldn't, that do not

[00:38:54] understand that, the enrolled bill is the final language that passed both bodies with

[00:39:00] the required votes to be sent to the governor.

[00:39:03] So the bill, once it passes all of these amendments and all the changes are enrolled into the bill

[00:39:10] and sent to the governor, the governor can, it's three things.

[00:39:13] He can sign it, he can veto it, or he can allow it to become law without action.

[00:39:18] And that just, there's a time period on that.

[00:39:20] One of the deals is that, and you, I'm sure you saw this, but if you didn't see it, you know

[00:39:27] it, and that is those amendments that came on that bill, when the bill, when say House-

[00:39:34] You're talking about the 126 pages of amendments?

[00:39:36] Well, so yeah.

[00:39:37] So when House Bill 1 was rolled into House Bill 10, it was 126 pages of amendments.

[00:39:42] And it's not like they put plain language in there.

[00:39:45] It says, you know, remove this, repeal this.

[00:39:48] Now, in fairness to them, a lot of that was just strikethrough.

[00:39:52] Yes.

[00:39:52] A lot of, and what that means to the people listening that don't know, that's just language

[00:39:56] that's on the law books right now that's just completely taken out.

[00:39:59] So they took a whole lot of language out, and then they shifted some language around.

[00:40:04] Right.

[00:40:04] A lot of that 126 pages and 150 pages ultimately in the bill was just strikethroughs of current law.

[00:40:11] Yeah.

[00:40:11] So as soon as the enrolled version comes out, I'm going to take a look at those and kind

[00:40:15] of dig a little bit more into the detail of it.

[00:40:18] I cared more about what I was working because it's a job for me.

[00:40:23] I couldn't look at the other stuff.

[00:40:25] There just wasn't enough time.

[00:40:27] But it does, it was a lot.

[00:40:31] And so when those amendments came out, of course, I didn't go through all of the amendments.

[00:40:36] I just went through the amendments that impacted me.

[00:40:39] I only went to the statutory site references that impacted me.

[00:40:43] But I do have a little bit of a funny story.

[00:40:45] I may have told it before.

[00:40:46] And so if I did, I apologize.

[00:40:48] But I had a client call me and say, oh, my God, our exemption's gone.

[00:40:52] Our exemption's gone.

[00:40:53] And I was like, no, it's not.

[00:40:55] And they were like, yes, yes, yes.

[00:40:56] And so anyway, he goes, look on page whatever, 36, line 17.

[00:41:00] And I looked on there and I was like, yeah, it strikes it out there.

[00:41:03] I said, but you got to go to a lot.

[00:41:04] You got to go to page 115, line 17, where it puts it back in.

[00:41:09] And he's like, no, no, no, they took it out.

[00:41:12] And then you could hear the quiet on the phone and you could tell he was reading.

[00:41:15] And he goes, OK, that's right.

[00:41:17] It's in there.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:18] But I mean.

[00:41:18] Two clients that went into full panic mode.

[00:41:20] Yeah.

[00:41:21] And if you look at those last from 115 to 150 pages, that's where everything's put back in.

[00:41:26] That's right.

[00:41:27] It was taken out in those previous language.

[00:41:31] And it's the value of having, you know, I would say we are to the legislative process what attorneys are to the judicial process.

[00:41:38] We know the rules.

[00:41:39] We kind of know how the paperwork works.

[00:41:40] We know how the amendments work.

[00:41:42] But I mean, it's also pretty scary that if someone wanted to, someone wanted to be dishonest, they could put a lot of really bad stuff in a bill at the very end.

[00:41:53] No one would know because there's no time to read it.

[00:41:56] Yeah.

[00:41:56] Well, it's been done before.

[00:41:58] Oh, yeah.

[00:41:58] And I'm not going to mention names and history.

[00:42:01] It's in the history books, but it's been done before.

[00:42:03] We'll do that on a different show.

[00:42:05] Yeah, that's right.

[00:42:06] We'll name names on a different show.

[00:42:08] That's right.

[00:42:09] Right before we leave for the Caribbean.

[00:42:12] Right before I, or maybe, maybe, Joe, right after I retire, right?

[00:42:16] That's right.

[00:42:16] That's right.

[00:42:17] But no.

[00:42:18] My book's going to be posthumous.

[00:42:20] Oh, yeah.

[00:42:20] So you're going to be like Mark Twain, right?

[00:42:22] Where he, his was what, 100 years after he died, he did.

[00:42:25] Yeah.

[00:42:25] It'd be a time capsule.

[00:42:27] Yeah.

[00:42:27] Yeah.

[00:42:28] I don't know if you remember, but Mark Twain wrote an autobiography.

[00:42:31] And the one provision he had on his autobiography was, is that it couldn't be released for

[00:42:35] a hundred years.

[00:42:36] And I guess that was.

[00:42:36] I didn't know that.

[00:42:37] Yeah.

[00:42:37] And so it was released, what, six, seven years ago.

[00:42:40] And, uh, but it was, it had been a hundred years from his death and somebody was going,

[00:42:44] well, what was he worried about having impacts on people?

[00:42:47] And I can't remember exactly what he said, but you know, he was a humorous, but it had something

[00:42:50] to do with not only the people who were there, but their children and how they might

[00:42:54] be embarrassed or whatever.

[00:42:55] Well, there was nothing embarrassing.

[00:42:57] That's Mark Twain.

[00:42:57] That's what he did.

[00:42:58] A hundred, a hundred years later, he was relevant.

[00:43:01] Right.

[00:43:01] So, but, um,

[00:43:03] I still quote Mark Twain.

[00:43:04] I think all of us quote him at least once a day.

[00:43:06] I think every quote out there has been attributed to Mark Twain at one point or another.

[00:43:10] When I was on the school board, my favorite quote was, I never let my, uh, education get,

[00:43:15] I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.

[00:43:18] Uh, but, um, so the other thing I guess I wanted to cover too, Joe, is that a lot of these

[00:43:23] things are coming back.

[00:43:24] That's what we were told.

[00:43:25] A lot of them will come back in the regular session.

[00:43:28] I don't know if that means services tax.

[00:43:30] I don't know if there are some other little elements, but I've heard that this conversation

[00:43:35] is really just starting.

[00:43:37] That's kind of what I've heard.

[00:43:39] Well, and that's kind of what we said about the 19 days is this is a long, complicated conversation.

[00:43:47] Okay.

[00:43:47] And we also said tax reform was needed and this might be the right package, but just in

[00:43:52] case it's not perfect, what we also said is we have a fiscal session in April in 2025.

[00:43:59] So that if there is some tweaking, so to speak, that needs to be done on this package that

[00:44:03] was just passed, we need to all get with the governor's office or the legislature, you know,

[00:44:08] or both of them and sit down with our industries and our professions and say, you know, you may

[00:44:12] not realize that, you know, if this goes into effect, you may not realize the other effect

[00:44:18] that it'll have.

[00:44:19] So there is time to look at this and there is a venue to deal with it in the spring.

[00:44:26] Yeah.

[00:44:27] Well, one of the things I was going to go back to about, you know, so this package passed,

[00:44:31] the governor's clearly going to sign it.

[00:44:33] And then like, I think 50,000 jobs are going to be created, I'm told.

[00:44:38] And you know what that means, huh?

[00:44:41] More contracts for you and I, I'm just right.

[00:44:43] More businesses coming in, needing lobbyists at the, it's a joke.

[00:44:47] But that was one of the things that one of my, you know, there's people ask my whole life,

[00:44:53] people said, you know, how can you be attached to politics?

[00:44:56] Because most people don't like politics, you know, and I've always told them, I've said,

[00:44:59] you know, there's two, there's two Joe Mapes.

[00:45:01] There's Joe, the individual who thinks that everything should be burned down to the ground

[00:45:04] and started over.

[00:45:05] Okay.

[00:45:06] But then there's Joe, the professional lobbyist, governmental relations consultant that says that,

[00:45:11] you know, lobbying has been very, very good to me, you know, like that.

[00:45:16] And in all truthfulness, in all honesty, though, I do consider myself a steward to my position

[00:45:25] in that process.

[00:45:26] I wasn't given that position.

[00:45:27] I know you do, yes, yeah.

[00:45:28] And you and I, we earn those and we continue to earn those on a regular basis.

[00:45:35] And I'm not a corrupt lobbyist.

[00:45:37] Okay, there are corrupt lobbyists, but there's corrupt cashiers, you know, at Amersons.

[00:45:42] So it's in every business.

[00:45:43] And politics is not as corrupt as people think.

[00:45:46] I think every industry's probably got about 10% corruption in it.

[00:45:49] And that probably would hold true to lobbying as well.

[00:45:52] And I've said this before, if corruption worked, you know, everybody would be in our business.

[00:45:58] It'd be easy to just take one group's money and give it to the legislature.

[00:46:01] And the legislature does exactly what you want all the time.

[00:46:03] People would be lining up for that all day long.

[00:46:07] And that's why I consider my position as a steward so serious, because I know if I leave

[00:46:12] it, then there's probably 100 vultures that would take my spot to line their pockets,

[00:46:18] not be there to actually help people.

[00:46:19] Like you and I talk about this off camera all the time.

[00:46:22] I mean, we get paid to do this naturally.

[00:46:24] But the main attraction in our profession is that we get to help people.

[00:46:28] Right.

[00:46:28] Right?

[00:46:28] Oh, yeah.

[00:46:29] Personal relationships.

[00:46:30] You become invested in it.

[00:46:32] Look, I was invested in the film thing.

[00:46:33] It was personal to me.

[00:46:34] And it was personal because I've represented them since their origins, right?

[00:46:40] We started the association.

[00:46:41] I remember filling out the paperwork in my office when I was over on Blue Bonnet.

[00:46:45] And I've grown a real life.

[00:46:47] I love all my clients.

[00:46:48] But this particular session, I'm bringing up film because that was what was on the table.

[00:46:55] And heavily invested in it.

[00:46:56] Love the program.

[00:46:57] Love the creatives.

[00:46:58] Love the art of it.

[00:46:59] Love the way Louisiana is so, for being a small state, such a large player in the film business.

[00:47:07] And we don't call it motion picture because it's, you know, episodics.

[00:47:11] It's a series on TV.

[00:47:13] It's all of that.

[00:47:14] But it's created this creative culture, if you will.

[00:47:17] And so we're heavily invested in it.

[00:47:19] Well, it's great to see your places that you've been that you grew up around in a movie on TV, you know, sitting around with your family or something.

[00:47:26] You're like, hey, you remember that time we were?

[00:47:28] It's wonderful.

[00:47:29] So now every time I see a big orange peach, I get pissed, you know, because I know.

[00:47:32] That's Georgia.

[00:47:33] Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:34] A lot of our business went there, right?

[00:47:35] Yeah, so, and they're struggling right now, actually.

[00:47:39] I had an opportunity to meet the chairman of the Senate committee where those bills went through and their production slowed down a good bit.

[00:47:46] I'm sorry to hear that seriously.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:48] That's surprising, though.

[00:47:49] They're fine.

[00:47:50] I mean, they're big.

[00:47:51] They probably produce, I don't know, five to ten times what we produce, but they're probably five to ten times bigger than we are.

[00:47:57] Yeah, they're huge.

[00:47:57] And so it is interesting.

[00:48:00] And the best story of that is how long ago was Steel Magnolia shot in Natchitoches, right?

[00:48:05] And to this day, when people go to Natchitoches, they want to go see where Steel Magnolias was filmed.

[00:48:12] And it's like 50 years ago, you know?

[00:48:14] That's right.

[00:48:14] And I remember being proud when I was a child seeing Burt Reynolds go over those levees in that speedboat in that movie Gage.

[00:48:22] Yeah, that was that.

[00:48:23] And you'd see the Louisiana State Police cars chasing him and everything.

[00:48:26] Yeah.

[00:48:27] It's just, it's a thrill.

[00:48:28] It really is.

[00:48:28] Yeah, easy ride.

[00:48:29] Yeah.

[00:48:30] Yeah.

[00:48:30] That's true.

[00:48:31] Tarzan of the Apes.

[00:48:32] I mean, there was some pretty amazing films and some pretty amazing artists.

[00:48:36] But the point is, back to what you said, is we tend, we have relationships with our clients.

[00:48:40] And there is no situation I've ever been in where our clients are going like, you know, screw this, screw the state of Louisiana.

[00:48:46] This is what we want.

[00:48:47] You know, it's always like, okay, how do we, how do we, how do we balance the interests of the state of Louisiana in a particular industry that we represent?

[00:48:56] Right.

[00:48:57] And so, you know, I think of my physical therapist, they can't be at the Capitol every day because they're practicing physical therapy.

[00:49:03] So they've got to hire a guy like me to go down and be their voice.

[00:49:07] Right.

[00:49:07] And so same thing with you.

[00:49:09] You, you have a number of clients that are that way.

[00:49:12] Farmers are farming.

[00:49:13] Right.

[00:49:13] They're out there planting their crops.

[00:49:15] And sometimes that, that, that is actually used against professions.

[00:49:19] And so again, I don't want to get into naming names, but one professional file a bill and they'll schedule it on a Monday.

[00:49:26] And then the other profession that has really schedules that go three weeks or four weeks into the future and can't break them.

[00:49:31] They'll be there on that one day and then they'll defer the bill purposely on that one day and then schedule the bill a week or two later.

[00:49:37] Knowing that this other profession cannot break their schedule a second time.

[00:49:41] And if they are able to break it a second time, they'll break their backs and do and defer the bill a third time.

[00:49:47] I think how much it costs that.

[00:49:48] And again, I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy on this, but how much it costs the doctor to spend a day at the Capitol.

[00:49:53] He could have been seeing patients all day long.

[00:49:55] In addition to how much does it cost?

[00:49:57] What about the patients he could have seen?

[00:49:58] They need help too.

[00:49:59] I know.

[00:50:00] That was my next day.

[00:50:02] That's exactly where I was going.

[00:50:03] Yeah, we think alike.

[00:50:04] No, you're absolutely right.

[00:50:06] What about the patients who needed the care, but the doctor needed to go?

[00:50:09] Because part of what he may be testifying on is about quality of care, about something that somebody wants to do, which may be a good idea, but maybe unintended consequences.

[00:50:19] And I think, you know, that's a big deal.

[00:50:22] But it is.

[00:50:22] It is.

[00:50:23] It was an interesting session.

[00:50:25] It was more than I wanted to wrestle with.

[00:50:28] It was quite an.

[00:50:29] I think it might have been.

[00:50:30] You stayed busy.

[00:50:31] I was there the whole time.

[00:50:32] I felt kind of guilty staying in touch with you because, you know, you were there so much and I wasn't.

[00:50:37] But I know it wasn't good for me to be there because, look, we already got tagged for tinkering with the session when we didn't need lobbyists as a group, when we didn't even do it.

[00:50:45] Well, what was just hilarious to me.

[00:50:47] I want names, okay?

[00:50:48] All right.

[00:50:49] I'll give it to you.

[00:50:50] No, but I want names of alleged lobbyists that supposedly were down there because I don't think nobody can produce a list like that.

[00:50:56] No.

[00:50:57] But I will tell you this.

[00:50:58] When the session started, there were, what, 12 bills, I think, when it was first started, something like that.

[00:51:03] And there were.

[00:51:04] 11, and then again, it went up to 12, and they started growing.

[00:51:07] There were eight, maybe eight, maybe ten lobbyists and a handful of people.

[00:51:12] And then all of a sudden came Bill 13, 14, 15, 16, 22, 20.

[00:51:16] And, man, that place filled up.

[00:51:18] And it was kind of funny because one day I was sitting there with one of my team members, Evan Alvarez, who has just started working with us.

[00:51:27] And I was like, do you notice something different about the Capitol?

[00:51:30] And he was like, you know, he was kind of looking around.

[00:51:32] And I said, look at all the lobbyists that are here now.

[00:51:35] I guess some bills got filed that were come see me or whatever.

[00:51:38] But in the end, it was packed.

[00:51:40] Well, you know, come see me, that's not always used as an affectionate term.

[00:51:43] You know what that means?

[00:51:44] Somebody files a bill and they want everybody that's affected by the bill, every industry, every profession, every individual that's affected by the bill to come see them, to come talk to them.

[00:51:53] Sometimes they're not even intent on passing that piece of legislation.

[00:51:56] That's just a way to get, you know, smoke everybody out, so to speak, and get them to the table so you know who all the interested parties are.

[00:52:03] You know?

[00:52:03] So that's what a come see me bill is about.

[00:52:06] It's not necessarily a bad thing, right?

[00:52:07] No, I agree.

[00:52:08] Look, I don't have a problem when a legislature.

[00:52:10] It kind of keeps them.

[00:52:11] I'm sorry to interrupt, but it keeps the issue on the move, okay?

[00:52:13] And we were just talking about this, the difference between this session and the spring session, okay?

[00:52:19] That's what we'll be doing.

[00:52:20] We'll be, you know, working this issue on the move, all of us, the governor, the legislature, and the industries and professions.

[00:52:26] No, look, I don't have a problem with when somebody files a come see me bill because if it creates and generates a conversation, a reasonable conversation about looking for solutions to solve a problem, it allows me the opportunity to have the conversation with the legislator or the other organization or whoever.

[00:52:42] And then go back to my clients and say, hey, this is what they're doing.

[00:52:45] This is why they want to do it.

[00:52:47] And this is what the language says.

[00:52:49] And then my people can come back and say, well, we don't have a problem with what they're doing.

[00:52:53] The language would do this.

[00:52:54] And we bring that back and they look at it and go, oh, that's not what we-

[00:52:57] So you're molding and shaping along the way.

[00:52:58] Yeah, it's not what we meant to do.

[00:53:00] We don't even really care about that.

[00:53:01] Okay, so y'all don't need this in the bill.

[00:53:03] No, no, no.

[00:53:04] This is about patient care and, you know, access and whatever.

[00:53:07] And then we go back and next thing you know, we're all holding hands, singing Kumbaya, and we've made a better bill.

[00:53:12] Right.

[00:53:12] And that's something that I don't think always comes across in what we do for a living.

[00:53:16] So let's real quick talk about, you know, a full disclosure.

[00:53:20] How did the term come see me get a bad name?

[00:53:23] Yeah.

[00:53:23] And so what happens then, you know, oh, that's a come see me bill.

[00:53:27] There have been reprehensible individuals, you know, in the past that lobbyists and legislators alike,

[00:53:33] but a legislator will file a bill with no intent of passing it just to try and be talked out of it, quote unquote.

[00:53:39] Yeah.

[00:53:40] You know what I'm saying?

[00:53:41] And so, and that doesn't happen.

[00:53:42] Probably people think that happens all the time.

[00:53:44] It really doesn't.

[00:53:45] It's rare.

[00:53:46] But it has happened.

[00:53:47] And that's where the term come see me gets a negative connotation with it.

[00:53:50] And I just wanted to throw that out there before we moved on.

[00:53:52] We're not trying to paint any picture of lobbyists here as being, you know, pearly white or anything like that.

[00:53:58] But we're good guys.

[00:53:59] I'm looking at a good guy.

[00:54:01] And I'm sitting across the table.

[00:54:03] Again, there's, you know, politics isn't any worse than any other industry.

[00:54:08] I'm telling you.

[00:54:08] Now, one way there is it.

[00:54:10] Okay.

[00:54:10] Go ahead.

[00:54:11] No, I was just going to say, there's a lot of really bright, ethical, high integrity people in our profession that I trust like I would trust in my business part.

[00:54:20] Right.

[00:54:21] Correct.

[00:54:22] So it's, you know, I get like you said, every profession is going to have good guys and bad guys and so on.

[00:54:29] But I think of Roger Wilder's House Bill 22, that would have doubled, not doubled, would have raised the tax on online betting from 15% to 51.7%.

[00:54:42] Wow.

[00:54:43] Interesting number.

[00:54:44] That's a 50.

[00:54:45] Just flipped the number, huh?

[00:54:46] I guess.

[00:54:47] I don't know.

[00:54:47] I think it was tied for the highest in the nation.

[00:54:51] I think that's where they came up with the number.

[00:54:53] I got to say, though, that's the ultimate luxury tax, though, right?

[00:54:56] You don't have to gamble.

[00:54:57] We're talking about services.

[00:54:58] That's one you don't have to do, you know, unless you're addicted, I guess.

[00:55:02] So we represent a property development company that has a casino in Bossier City.

[00:55:09] It's not open yet.

[00:55:09] It's going to open.

[00:55:10] I can't tell you when, but it's going to – I mean, I can tell you, but they'd probably fire me.

[00:55:15] It's a very secret date and all that.

[00:55:18] But anyway, I looked at the bill, and this is another thing about lobbying.

[00:55:23] I looked at the bill, and I thought, we don't have an online betting platform, so we don't care.

[00:55:30] But they had a provision in there that talked about promotional play, or there's another word for it, free play.

[00:55:36] So, you know, you go onto your phone, and FanDuel says, if you sign up today, I'll give you $25.

[00:55:43] $35 for food and $75 to play the machines.

[00:55:47] So in Representative Wilder's bill, and this is another thing about being a lobbyist, we just saw him, and we said, hey, Roger, Representative Wilder, we looked at your bill.

[00:55:58] I don't have any issue with your bill.

[00:55:59] In fact, I think my client likes it.

[00:56:01] But there is a provision in there that talks about free play, and I think it's in the wrong section of law.

[00:56:07] If you put it in there, you're going to go after the bricks-and-mortar people, and those are the people who have invested or are creating jobs and so on and so forth.

[00:56:14] And he goes, well, that's not what I wanted to do.

[00:56:16] And I said, it's fine.

[00:56:17] I said, let's just check.

[00:56:18] And sure enough, it was in the wrong section of the law.

[00:56:20] He didn't want to do that, so he was going to amend that.

[00:56:23] You want to talk about lobbyists coming out of the woodwork on that bill?

[00:56:26] It was unbelievable.

[00:56:27] It's like somebody kicked an amp out.

[00:56:29] That day in committee when that bill came up, they just – we were watching it because we needed to make sure our little part got out, right?

[00:56:38] It was unbelievable.

[00:56:39] That situation, what you're doing there is you're showcasing the client as the expert.

[00:56:43] Right.

[00:56:44] The client is always the expert.

[00:56:46] Right.

[00:56:46] Okay?

[00:56:46] And that's all we're trying to do is get the expert information, the correct information to the legislators.

[00:56:51] I said that last week.

[00:56:52] We're educators.

[00:56:53] Right.

[00:56:53] We're not going to give you bad education because we want to come back to you and work with you again if you're a legislator.

[00:56:58] You know, we're not going to – you know, people think – I don't know what people think, how much people think lobbyists lie.

[00:57:05] We don't, okay?

[00:57:06] We may not tell you everything that we know, but we're not going to lie because once we get caught, that's our number one commodity.

[00:57:14] Now, legislators can lie to us all the time, okay?

[00:57:17] Because we've got to go back to them regardless.

[00:57:20] And, you know, I've got a chart for that.

[00:57:22] It's a credibility chart on how I deal with that.

[00:57:25] You know, so if somebody's lied to me eight out of ten times versus somebody that's lied to me on that chart two out of ten times, who am I going to go with on this vote?

[00:57:34] I need a vote.

[00:57:35] Okay?

[00:57:35] The obvious answer might be two unless you read into the dynamics and the sub-dynamics.

[00:57:38] Where did they go to school?

[00:57:39] What religion are they?

[00:57:40] Who are they married to?

[00:57:41] What does their wife do for a living?

[00:57:42] And then you might realize that this person that voted against you eight times had to, okay?

[00:57:48] And this other person that voted with you two times lied about it.

[00:57:51] So I'm going with eight out of ten on my credibility chart.

[00:57:53] Well, another funny thing before we wrap up is when I went to talk with Representative Wilder about that, I said, I told him, I said, you didn't know how much money this generates, don't you?

[00:58:03] And he said the fiscal office said it generated about $100 million.

[00:58:07] And I looked at him and I said, double it.

[00:58:09] And he says, $200 million.

[00:58:12] So anyway, we were wrestling on the floor about the film tax credit and quality jobs and all the other things that were out there.

[00:58:18] And I told a high-ranking person in the governor's office, I said, look, just leave us alone and take the $200 million you're going to get from House Bill 22.

[00:58:28] And they looked at me with just darting eyes and said, that money's already spent.

[00:58:34] And by the way, the bill didn't pass.

[00:58:35] Okay.

[00:58:36] I wasn't keeping up with that one.

[00:58:38] Yeah.

[00:58:38] So it didn't pass.

[00:58:39] It was actually withdrawn from the files of the House.

[00:58:41] So that tells you how he just didn't understand.

[00:58:44] And, you know, he was not trying to be harmful.

[00:58:46] His district is not a pro-gaming district.

[00:58:49] We had a group at the Capitol this past regular session, about 25 people, the annual tour, you know, and we took them downstairs for lunch in the Capitol.

[00:58:59] And one of them asked a question about a bill that was, you know, in the legislature.

[00:59:04] And I go, oh, well, that bill is doing the opposite of what I think that it should do.

[00:59:09] And they go, yeah, well, that's why we asked you about it.

[00:59:12] So Sandy looked up and found out that this legislator happened to be sitting on committee live upstairs.

[00:59:17] And, well, let's go see him.

[00:59:17] So we pulled him out of committee.

[00:59:19] And he came outside and explained his bill to us.

[00:59:22] And it did actually the complete opposite of what we wanted.

[00:59:26] And he didn't know that.

[00:59:30] It had been possibly drafted incorrectly.

[00:59:33] Right.

[00:59:33] Okay.

[00:59:33] And so by going to him, a group approaches him in the hall, initially you would think, look, they're opposing his bill because it does the opposite of what they want.

[00:59:42] No.

[00:59:42] We were just going to have a conversation with him.

[00:59:44] And in the end he said, look, that's written completely backwards.

[00:59:47] Let's get it straight.

[00:59:48] He got it straight within a day.

[00:59:50] The bill passed and everybody's happy.

[00:59:52] And that's the value.

[00:59:53] Yeah.

[00:59:53] And it's the value of people being engaged in the process.

[00:59:57] Correct.

[00:59:57] For me, when I get my clients engaged, they're way better than me.

[01:00:00] They're the best lobbyists.

[01:00:02] You know, the citizens are the best lobbyists there are.

[01:00:06] You know, there's no doubt.

[01:00:07] There's no known defense for bringing a registered voter to a senator or a representative.

[01:00:11] You could bring them a check.

[01:00:12] You could bring them an invitation to a golf tournament.

[01:00:15] You could bring them all sorts of things.

[01:00:17] But some of them almost consider it dirty pool to bring a voting constituent.

[01:00:21] Yeah.

[01:00:22] I'm serious.

[01:00:22] There's a senator that's gone now still.

[01:00:24] I don't mention names because people come back.

[01:00:26] Right.

[01:00:27] But he had a bill five years in a row.

[01:00:30] Okay.

[01:00:31] And the fifth year we were killing it.

[01:00:33] And he was on the other side of the Senate.

[01:00:35] And we said, and he wouldn't come talk to us.

[01:00:37] So we just put our hands up and we went, okay.

[01:00:39] We started walking off.

[01:00:40] And he went nuts and ran across the Senate and got up in our face.

[01:00:43] He goes, I know what you're going to do.

[01:00:45] And I go, what?

[01:00:46] Go call my client?

[01:00:47] He goes, yes.

[01:00:48] And I go, yes, that's exactly what I'm going to go do.

[01:00:51] That's what you have to do.

[01:00:52] And you got to unleash it.

[01:00:53] And when they say, look, I'm getting too many phone calls.

[01:00:55] I'm getting too many texts.

[01:00:56] I'm getting too many emails.

[01:00:57] What you need?

[01:00:57] I'm getting too many voter voices.

[01:00:59] We go home at night and we tell the people, listen.

[01:01:01] The legislators told us they'd like to hear some more from y'all.

[01:01:04] You know, they're not hearing enough.

[01:01:05] And the point is you can never do that enough because we don't represent you and me.

[01:01:10] Okay.

[01:01:11] We don't represent an association.

[01:01:12] We represent the members that are members that are part of that association.

[01:01:16] And not to pick on the physical therapist, but when we passed direct access, you know,

[01:01:20] a decade ago, Steve Carter was in the house and Steve didn't like the bill.

[01:01:25] Steve was against the bill.

[01:01:26] And, you know, one day we were in the back of the house and he walks up to me and he goes,

[01:01:30] you tell those physical therapists to stop calling me.

[01:01:33] Tell them to stop calling me.

[01:01:34] And I said, are you going to vote for the bill?

[01:01:36] And he goes, no.

[01:01:37] And I said, then they're not stop calling you.

[01:01:39] We're going to, they're not going to stop calling you.

[01:01:41] They're going to keep calling you until you at least sit down and have a conversation with them.

[01:01:46] Have I told the Jim Harper story here before?

[01:01:48] No, I don't think so.

[01:01:49] Real quick, if you don't mind.

[01:01:51] So we fought the railroads, got Carmack, Blackburn, God bless him.

[01:01:55] Drew Tessier, good friends of ours, but the railroads have their issues.

[01:01:58] You know, we were trying to work on an issue where agricultural, private agricultural crossings

[01:02:04] would get shut down in the middle of the day.

[01:02:05] So a farmer would go out on the back 40 and, you know.

[01:02:09] Couldn't get out.

[01:02:10] Yeah, right.

[01:02:11] Couldn't get back up to the front of the farm.

[01:02:13] So anyway, we had a, it's a really long story, but we had a bill in 2010 that was on the house floor

[01:02:18] and it was a Senate bill.

[01:02:20] So it was about three bills away to be heard.

[01:02:21] And what that means is it'll be 10 or 15 minutes or so from now, unless they get in a big argument

[01:02:26] on some other bills in front of it.

[01:02:28] But my phone rings and it's a guy from the executive committee and he says, you know,

[01:02:32] how's our bill doing?

[01:02:33] And I says, well, you know, it's doing just fine.

[01:02:35] And he says, how's my legislative delegation doing?

[01:02:38] And I said, well, they're doing fine too, except for this one.

[01:02:40] And he goes, what?

[01:02:41] You got his phone number?

[01:02:42] And I go, well, yeah, I got his home number.

[01:02:43] I got his district office number.

[01:02:45] I got his number on the house floor, house of representatives.

[01:02:48] He got his cell phone number.

[01:02:49] And he goes, give me his cell phone number.

[01:02:50] And about two minutes later, this legislator comes out the back of the house with cartoon steam coming out of his ears.

[01:02:56] He's coming at Sandy and me like a bull.

[01:02:58] And he's screaming.

[01:03:00] He says, y'all hadn't ought to have done this to me.

[01:03:02] I know who that is.

[01:03:03] Go ahead.

[01:03:04] We'll still be friends.

[01:03:05] Y'all hadn't ought to have done this to me.

[01:03:07] It was wrong, wrong, wrong.

[01:03:09] And he goes back in the house.

[01:03:10] Bill comes up and it passes.

[01:03:11] My phone rings again.

[01:03:13] And it's Jim.

[01:03:13] And he says, Joe, he says, how did our bill do?

[01:03:17] I said, well, it did just fine.

[01:03:17] He goes, how did my delegation do?

[01:03:19] I said, well, it did just fine.

[01:03:21] And I said, but Jim.

[01:03:22] He says, all of them.

[01:03:23] I go, yeah.

[01:03:23] He goes, Justin, Jim, you're going to have to tell me.

[01:03:25] What did you tell him?

[01:03:27] He said, I'll tell you what I told him.

[01:03:28] He said, I told him, boy, you're going to vote for this bill and I'm going to call your daddy.

[01:03:33] And that's how politics works.

[01:03:35] That is strong.

[01:03:37] That's strong medicine.

[01:03:38] Well, we've had people tell us that it's not about who you know.

[01:03:40] It's about what you know.

[01:03:41] But if you call me, David, and ask me for a favor, I'm not going to start factoring for X.

[01:03:46] I'm going to start thinking, who do I know that's going to help me with this?

[01:03:49] And if they don't know how to help me, then the two of us are going to start thinking on who do we know.

[01:03:53] We're not going to start doing trigonometry.

[01:03:55] No.

[01:03:55] That's all there is to it.

[01:03:56] So, you know, call it what you will, but I just call it life.

[01:04:00] Yeah.

[01:04:01] Well, it's checkers.

[01:04:01] I mean, it's chess, not checkers, right?

[01:04:04] It's definitely more of a complicated game.

[01:04:07] Well, look, I appreciate you being here again.

[01:04:10] This is season three.

[01:04:12] We'll wrap season three up soon, but I'm hoping to get you back for season four.

[01:04:16] And we're going to come up with some interesting subject matter that we can talk about to sort of inform our listeners and to help educate, I guess, and engage with the community and everything that's going on in Baton Rouge.

[01:04:32] We're the only podcast doing this for no money.

[01:04:35] We don't collect any money.

[01:04:38] It doesn't cost me a whole lot because I already own the equipment, but we don't take any money.

[01:04:44] We do this to try to communicate with people, and I appreciate you because you're spending the time coming out here, driving all the way out here to the Pelican Brief World Headquarters, and I appreciate you coming out.

[01:04:57] It always amazes me that citizens aren't more engaged in the politics that surround them.

[01:05:03] And I understand it.

[01:05:05] You know, over the decades, they've gotten frustrated.

[01:05:07] They feel like their voice isn't being heard.

[01:05:09] But I still feel for them.

[01:05:11] I still want them to be involved because I've seen the joy that it brings people to get involved and to communicate.

[01:05:16] Like I was saying earlier, a lot of people don't know that they can even talk to their senator or their rep, you know?

[01:05:21] That's right.

[01:05:22] So to get them in a private conversation with them where the citizen, the voter, actually has an influence on that conversation, they're on cloud.

[01:05:30] They'll drop to their knees and thank you sometimes.

[01:05:33] They're like, how did you do that?

[01:05:34] Well, that's the process.

[01:05:35] It's there for all of us, you know?

[01:05:37] Yeah.

[01:05:37] No, it's really important.

[01:05:38] So again, thanks for being here, Joe.

[01:05:40] It's always a pleasure.

[01:05:41] I love it.

[01:05:41] This is our, this is episode seven, season three of the Pelican Brief.

[01:05:47] You know how to get in touch with us.

[01:05:49] If you want to follow us on social media, our tag is at Pelican Brief 225.

[01:05:53] If you want to watch us on YouTube, it's at the Pelican Brief 225.

[01:05:58] Like, share, engage, questions, whatever you have, we're happy to answer it.

[01:06:03] And until next time, I am David Tappman and we are the Pelican Brief.

[01:06:06] The Pelican Brief is an Offscript production.